Comments on: Penal Substitution?

By: Ernie

Ernie — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:15:11 +0000

I do too Linda, but it was an ACT OF LOVE by Jesus and not an act of a violent, blood-thirsty God. We agree on the bigger picture, just not the method.

By: Linda

Linda — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:41:00 +0000

I believe when Jesus said, “this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for FORGIVENESS OF SINS”, He meant it. (Matthew 26:28)

By: Ernie

Ernie — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:32:47 +0000

Linda- Itâ€™s probably my fault for having taught Zodhiates for too long, as I now see him as one who through the â€œletter-tenses-etc.â€ of the word-law has missed the spirit of the word....A very good man to whom I owe much, butâ€¦â€¦ That said, I see II Cor. 5:18-21 (that you referenced) as affirming what I wrote, especially verse 19 between the two verses that you used that God was IN Christ, not that Christ WAS God. And once more depending on an individualâ€™s point of view (everyone has one), Jesus was both a substitute and a representative. I like the latter primarily because the former lulls us into, Heâ€™s doing it- he sat in for us, whereas the latter says NOW YOU, FOLLOW ME AND GO DO LIKEWISE! He got the ball rolling, now itâ€™s up to us to follow Him! Propitiation (#2434) and #2644 (katallassoo) are used only 3x as the authors searched for words to describe the indescribable. Bottom line is from which â€œviewpointâ€ is one looking? When it says God reconciled us to Him does one interpret that as God changed His mind, or that through Jesus, God changed OUR mind? I take the latter or else we paint a very angry and violent God- one who would send people to hell for eternity- that He created and said was very good- in fact, in His image! I simply canâ€™t go there. But, as Iâ€™ve said, I love your zeal, passion, and defense of your viewpoint(s).

By: Don Rogers

Don Rogers — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:23:18 +0000

Linda- Do you believe in eternal conscious torment? If so, wouldn’t it be true that Jesus should still be in Hell if as you stated:
“â€œHe had to be made like His brethren in all things” to be the propitiation for sin. For isn’t eternal conscious torment the result of unforgiven sin?

By: Don Rogers

Don Rogers — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:16:13 +0000

Linda-”Jesusâ€™ blood provides the satisfaction demanded by Godâ€™s justice”
That phrase really bothers me. The One who is described in the Bible as love itself, demands a blood sacrifice to satisfy the demands of “justice”. Under penal subsitution, God forgives no one, He instead exacts payment from another as some twisted form of divine justice. As for me, I will not believe our Source chose to do that. Perhaps, you should listen carefully to what you are saying and ask yourself if you really, honestly believe that God would do what you profess he did.

By: Linda

Linda — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:28:14 +0000

2 Corinthians 5:21 states “He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the rightousness of God in Him.” That is definitely substitution. According to the Greek scholar, Spiros Zodhiates, SC #2433 meaning propiatiation declares Jesus’ blood provides the satisfaction demanded by God’s justice whereby the removal of sins is attained. Hebrews 2:17, “He had to be made like His brethren in all things …to make propitiation for the sins of the people.” SC #2644 signifies not only the removal of the demands of justice, but God establishing a relationship of peace between Himself and man. 2 Corinthians 5:18 tells us God reconciled (SC 2644) us to Himself through Christ. So, both propitiation and expiation are used in the New Testament to show the goodness of a loving, holy God who reconciles us to Himself.

By: Don Rogers

Don Rogers — Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:19:08 +0000

A great article! Yours does a clearer job than explaining the issue than the link I left recently. Here’s why I think so. You really believe the ideas you have presented here. My friend Steve, who authored the article which I linked, was “in process” of coming to a position of belief from a very traditional background and education, not unlike you and I some years ago. Thank you for clarifying further this contentious issue.